Re: Syaoran + Perfection = Marty Stu?

[Emiko]

Woah long post! lol
I'll be short.
I agree, thats why I prefer CCS Syaoran.
Kurogane and Fai are also steriotypes, Just look at them! Black and white with opposite personalaties.
CLAMP did not put as much thought into character development with TRC then it did with most other series. Not sure why, esp when Watanuki in holic is such a complex character, they've obviously not lost their touch *shrug*

I think Kuro and Fai are very deep characters, personally. Yes, they're white and black and yin and yang and all that, but together that creates a wonderful personality clash. Additionally, when you look at them seperately,. Fai's got a hidden layer of sadness and a pushing-people-away complex about smiling too much. Kurogane's also not as hard and mean as he proclaims himself to be.

I feel both characters have an incredible amount of depth. Yes, they're opposites, but what's wrong with that? People can be opposites and still be real.

[Takeru]

I think Fai and Kurogane are good characters as well, but they're stereotypes. Just... fresh and interesting ones.

[wetheril]

I think Fai and Kurogane are good characters as well, but they're stereotypes. Just... fresh and interesting ones.

Kurogane and Fay may have started out as stereotypes and foils for each other. As supporting characters, I wasn't that interested in them at the start of the series because their main purpose seemed to be just to add comedy. Over time, they have proven themselves to be more than stereotypes with their own pasts and stories, and this is the reason why they draw as much attention as they do.

On the other hand, Syaoran was already perfect to begin with--there wasn't much development in store for him, while Sakura's role was more like a victim of fate rather than an actual character. However, I think she is more human compared to Syaoran, since she has her insecurities over the loss of her memories that she struggles over.

[Takeru]

And that lovely song she sings during the Oni arc.

[Razeasha]

I don't remember who said it (probably Syao or Yuki), or when, but someone mentioned how the princess and her brother argued alot. There was also a pic there that reminded me of CCS Sakura, so maybe she'll get better when her memories come back...

yeah Syao is the extreme marty stu, but I don't mind too much...

Fai and kuro remind me of actual people...(both are girls though) I think kuro and fai have more layers than we know of yet.kuro's past� 

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and the whole be like daddy avenge mommy thing was painfully cliche...

[Cardcaptor Takato]

AND I WANT TO SEE IWAO JUNKO AND TANGE SAKURA BACK IN ACTION!! >=(

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Tange-san retired now?  I just seem to remember reading somewhere that she was but I can't remember where.  In any case, I totally agree about the character development in Tsubasa and it's one of the main things I don't like about this series.  Syaoran is indeed too perfect and Sakura is just useless most of the time.  The only real time she got to shine so far was in the Piffle World arc.  I think Clamp probably made Syaoran's personality more perfect than his CCS personality because Tsubasa is targeted at a slightly younger age group than CCS is.  I mean, I know both CCS and Tsubasa are for kids in Japan, but CCS seemed to be more for a general audience, something the entire family can enjoy.  The plot was a lot thicker, the characters were much more interesting, there were more complex love triangles, and they had more controversial relationships, but Tsubasa seems to be more for a younger audience.  The plot is much more predictable, the characters seem more like typical shounen characters, there's a lot less focus on romance, and the only controversial relationships so far have been some shounen-ai hints but it isn't quite as open about it as CCS was.

Since Tsubasa is for a slightly younger audience than CCS, Clamp probably wanted Syaoran to be perfect because a lead character who's perfect would be a more appealing role model for little kids than someone with a lot of flaws like his CCS counterpart.  It's the same reason why Disney characters like Snow White and Princess Aurora are always so perfect because they're supposed to be role models for little kids.  The Angelic Layer manga was also targeted towards a younger audience and the character development in that series was very bland as well yet all of their other series that are for slightly older audiences have much better characterization.  You also have to remember that Tsubasa is a shounen anime and shounen anime's main audience tend to be younger boys who are more interested in exciting action scenes than character development.  Perhaps if Tsubasa was made for a slightly older audience by Japanese standards, the series would have a lot better character development and maybe the plot wouldn't be so simple.

[mela]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Tange-san retired now? I just seem to remember reading somewhere that she was but I can't remember where. In any case, I totally agree about the character development in Tsubasa and it's one of the main things I don't like about this series. Syaoran is indeed too perfect and Sakura is just useless most of the time. The only real time she got to shine so far was in the Piffle World arc. I think Clamp probably made Syaoran's personality more perfect than his CCS personality because Tsubasa is targeted at a slightly younger age group than CCS is. I mean, I know both CCS and Tsubasa are for kids in Japan, but CCS seemed to be more for a general audience, something the entire family can enjoy. The plot was a lot thicker, the characters were much more interesting, there were more complex love triangles, and they had more controversial relationships, but Tsubasa seems to be more for a younger audience. The plot is much more predictable, the characters seem more like typical shounen characters, there's a lot less focus on romance, and the only controversial relationships so far have been some shounen-ai hints but it isn't quite as open about it as CCS was.

Since Tsubasa is for a slightly younger audience than CCS, Clamp probably wanted Syaoran to be perfect because a lead character who's perfect would be a more appealing role model for little kids than someone with a lot of flaws like his CCS counterpart. It's the same reason why Disney characters like Snow White and Princess Aurora are always so perfect because they're supposed to be role models for little kids. The Angelic Layer manga was also targeted towards a younger audience and the character development in that series was very bland as well yet all of their other series that are for slightly older audiences have much better characterization. You also have to remember that Tsubasa is a shounen anime and shounen anime's main audience tend to be younger boys who are more interested in exciting action scenes than character development. Perhaps if Tsubasa was made for a slightly older audience by Japanese standards, the series would have a lot better character development and maybe the plot wouldn't be so simple.

I don't think it's because CLAMP was targeting Tsubasa at a younger audience. I think even younger kids read CCS and Syaoran wasn't as "Marty Stu" as he is in TRC. I think that the plot may have started out relatively simple, but it has gotten A LOT more complicated now. I don't think that because it is targeted at a younger audience CLAMP is going to dumb their ideas down completely. I also think that as the manga progressed you get more and more character development, I hardly think it's bland right now.  The shounen tag is very loose I think, I think it was more for the sake of labelling it and the art style for the sake of categorization. I don't see it as strictly shounen and following shounen plot devices. Anyway, whatever category CLAMP labels it, they know that more than little boys are going to buy it because of their huge fanbase all over the world, so I don't think they restrict themselves to a merely shounenish plot.

I think it has a lot to do with recent revelations that

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well, he's a clone. He's not a person who has ever had a FULL personality, much less his OWN personality. He's part a program created by Fei Wong Reed to capture feathers and part real!Syaoran's heart, which is where his only bit of humanity comes from. I can't say I exactly blame him because there are such weird and tragic circumstances to just his existance.

[Rekall]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Tange-san retired now?  I just seem to remember reading somewhere that she was but I can't remember where.  In any case, I totally agree about the character development in Tsubasa and it's one of the main things I don't like about this series.  Syaoran is indeed too perfect and Sakura is just useless most of the time.  The only real time she got to shine so far was in the Piffle World arc.  I think Clamp probably made Syaoran's personality more perfect than his CCS personality because Tsubasa is targeted at a slightly younger age group than CCS is.  I mean, I know both CCS and Tsubasa are for kids in Japan, but CCS seemed to be more for a general audience, something the entire family can enjoy.  The plot was a lot thicker, the characters were much more interesting, there were more complex love triangles, and they had more controversial relationships, but Tsubasa seems to be more for a younger audience.  The plot is much more predictable, the characters seem more like typical shounen characters, there's a lot less focus on romance, and the only controversial relationships so far have been some shounen-ai hints but it isn't quite as open about it as CCS was.

Since Tsubasa is for a slightly younger audience than CCS, Clamp probably wanted Syaoran to be perfect because a lead character who's perfect would be a more appealing role model for little kids than someone with a lot of flaws like his CCS counterpart.  It's the same reason why Disney characters like Snow White and Princess Aurora are always so perfect because they're supposed to be role models for little kids.  The Angelic Layer manga was also targeted towards a younger audience and the character development in that series was very bland as well yet all of their other series that are for slightly older audiences have much better characterization.  You also have to remember that Tsubasa is a shounen anime and shounen anime's main audience tend to be younger boys who are more interested in exciting action scenes than character development.  Perhaps if Tsubasa was made for a slightly older audience by Japanese standards, the series would have a lot better character development and maybe the plot wouldn't be so simple.

You got it backwards CCS is the one targeted at a younger audience.  TRC is for an older one.  CCS is extremely tame compared to TRC where you get graphic violence like you'd find in X.

[Takeru]

Yeah, really. That's a hard mistake to make.

CCS is aimed at a younger or more family-oriented demographic, because of its overall cute factor and the lack of graphic violence. Let's also not forget that in the world of CCS, the lack of global and/or terrestrial conflict is conspicuously absent. No war, no violence, no world hunger, no beggars in the streets, we barely ever travel out of Tomoeda... it's a very innocuous show. Why? It was written for kids. It just happened to also appeal to an older audience, because of its deep character development and intricate storyline.

Tsubasa Chronicle is aimed at an older, more action-oriented audience (you know, like DBZ), since it's got a heck of a lot more action, a more serious storyline and personality, and less quirky cuteness. World-wide conflict is more apparent (the war concerning the feather in the colonial world, the dictatorship and Chun Hyang's rebellion in Koryo), and let's also not forget that Tsubasa Chronicle deals with a very serious matter: death by murder. In CCS, the only people who died were because of passive diseases or other things, and they don't even do it on screen. In Tsubasa, people die at the hands of others or are faced with death very frequently.

When it came to Tsubasa, I think CLAMP simply wanted to write a character that can kick ***, take names, and be l33t 24/7. You know, like a typical action star. But even Pierce Brosnan's, Tom Cruise's, and Vin Diesel's characters have more character growth than Syaoran, and they're supposed to be action kings.

They better make Syaoran a little more lively, especially after the revelation of such a surprising plot twist. Same with the annoyingly hapless Sakura, once she gets her stunted memory back. If they don't, I'm really not sure I'm gonna continue watching, because I came for Syaokura and I haven't been getting it.

Also: Yes, Tange Sakura is retired as a voice actor so she can prolong her singing career, but who said old actors can't make recurring cameo appearances? Look at Marlon Brando. Not even death is keeping him from starring in new media.

[Becster]

Don't get me wrong, I have my little soft spot for Syaoran and Sakura...but...I agree. They're boring. Some of Syaoran's dorkish expressions crack me up (like when Kurogane threw the rock at him and it hit him, and when Fai lands on him after Kuro drops him XD), but...he's in monotone. Sakura just sits there going '*whimper**cling*' which is really annoying as she was so awesome in CCS. I really hope Clamp give her a shining moment some pont later...like getting really annoyed with Kuro and Fai and just kicking them in a closet and locking it. I reckon she's a closet fangirl. Haha.

I do only really read Tsubasa for Kurogane, Fai and Mokona. Not only are they the three stooges the comedy of the entire manga, they also have a very interesting relationship. Fai is obviously very fond of Mokona, and vice versa, whereas Mokona and Kuro...well...Kuro would probably kill Mokona if it weren't for the fact that Mokona can get him home. Haha. But more than anything I love seeing Kurogane and Fai's relationship unfold. Syaoran and Sakura are destined for each other - you know they'll end up together, they keep blushing and sidestepping around each other, which, although kinda cute, isn't getting them anywhere. Their relationship has barely moved from when Sakura woke up..

It's almost like for every two steps forward they take in their relationship, they take one backwards as well. It's much more fun watching Kuro and Fai's relationship, because there's a real chemistry there. They both have their short comings, and tend to bring out the best and worst in each other like most couples do ^_^, but as can be seen in the more recent chapters: they do have a close bond. Whether they'd want to admit it or not, they see things about each other no one else does.

Backtracking for a second, I don't think we can entirely blame Syaoran for being 'perfect'

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given that he's actually a man made clone

. He's just perfection that's grown a heart. Maybe it's not his fault...but it is kinda annoying.

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Who knows. Maybe Real!Syaoran will have more shortcomings. ^^

[Emiko]

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I hope real!Syaoran is a total jackass. Just to spice things up a little. Like, he kicks puppies and sticks your hand in warm water while you sleep.

[Becster]

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I hope real!Syaoran is a total jackass. Just to spice things up a little. Like, he kicks puppies and sticks your hand in warm water while you sleep.

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NOOOOOO, NOT THE WARM WATER. Real!Syaoran you evil little...

[Takeru]

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I hope real!Syaoran is a total jackass. Just to spice things up a little. Like, he kicks puppies and sticks your hand in warm water while you sleep.

Agreed wholeheartedly. It'd be funny if he were a total pervert too, after watching all this decent Syaoran stuff. XD

[babypigggy]

This is an interesting topic...
There are many things not to lvoe about him, the fact taht he is so perfect makes him unreal. Even if you met a real guy like that, i doubt you can feel all taht safe. He's so perfect it makse you feel insecure. I've always been the one to pick at flaws... (though i am a fangirl xD).. plus it makes him SEEM so perfect only cause his personality was so compatable with Sakura's...

[Luci-Chan~~]

I dont now that thing of Marty Stu, but I think that shaoran is'nt perfect, he's just cute xDD

[Cardcaptor Takato]

In a way, isn't Syaoran's perfectedness kind of a flaw in itself?  After all, it is possible to be too perfect.

[babypigggy]

In a way, isn't Syaoran's perfectedness kind of a flaw in itself? After all, it is possible to be too perfect.

That's exactly my point. Perfection is a flaw itself.

[aiko-dono]

oh god, I'm SO with you.

I agree totally about the lackness of personality! that boy is a robot!.

I do also preffer the CCSsyaoran, he was cute, funny, jelaousy, passionate...everything! he was imperfect and that's why I loved him! (and sure, thousands of girls too).
' yeah, comparated to the chatacters in CCS, sakura and syaoran had lost so much charm...

at least we have kurogane and fye... ._. I think that clamp is more concerned about the emotional development of those guys that the development of the kids.
mm...I don't complain with the fist but still....I miss the CCSsyaoran T_T .

He was better like a kid than like a teenager!!.

[Zettai daijoubu]

AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!
but Syaoran is Syaoran is Syaoran!!!!
i have to admit that i do love that 10 yr old Syaoran in CCS better than the matured one in TRC.. but he's juz.. SYAORAN..

pardon me.. i one of those "fangirls following him everywhere"..

but i have to agree with Xiao_Lang that since the dark Syaoran in TRC has made his debut our Syaoran is complete =)