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Debate: Justify Humanity

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Cardcaptor Takato:
We humans may not deserve to exist and there may be no justicafation for our existence, but the thing is, we DO exist and that can't be changed.  Yes, many humans are terrible and do horrible things, but not all humans do terrible things and just because many humans do terrible things doesn't give us the right as mere humans to judge others for their evil actions.  Who are we say to "humanity doesn't deserve to exist" when we're just as guilty as any other human for doing terrible things?  Hasn't the person who originally wrote this ever heard the phrase "Judge not lest thee be judged"?  I take it that the original author of this debate obviously must be dead now or otherwise they would be exteremly hypocritical for even thinking they have the right to go around suggesting humans don't deserve to exist while they're still living.  Yes, humans may not deserve to exist, but that's not the real question here.

The real question isn't whether or not do humans deserve to exist because whether or not they do doesn't change the fact that we are here.  The real question here is what can we as humans do to make the world better?  Yes, we live in a terrible world full of wars and suffering, but wiping out all humans isn't going to change it.  There's always going to be suffering whether humans exist or not.  If humans didn't exist, the animals would simply kill each other for hunger anyway, so regardless of who's inhabiting what world, there's always going to be pain and death.  That isn't to say that we should go around hurting others because nobody has the right to do that, but at the same time pain is a part of life that can't be changed and I think those painful emotions we humans have is what makes living life a beautiful thing because I think life without pain isn't real life.

Think about it.  If we all lived these perfect lives never doing anything wrong and never feeling anything but happiness 24 hours, how do we know that we're truly alive and not living a dream?  Animals don't have souls like humans do and can't feel all of the emotions humans do.  If the world was inhabiited by nothing but animals, I think it would be a very sad and lonely place to live in because the animals wouldn't cry for the other animal that they just ate for dinner.  When a mother eagle loses her child to another animal does she feel sad about that child's lost life?  When a human kills another human, there's always at least some human out there who will grieve for them even if they don't acknowledge it.  Yes, there's a lot of suffering going on in this world, but there's always going to be a person who will feel pain for another person that dies, the kind of pain that an animal can't feel and it's that pain that helps us move on and learn from our past mistakes.  We will make more mistakes in the future because we're humans with real emotions and not souless, perfect, blameless animals, but we can grieve over those mistakes and move on and try out best to make the world a better place.  Humans might not deserve to exist, but I think the fact that there are humans who can still cry at least gives us a pretty good excuse to live.  I hope what I said makes some sense.

Ando:
Interesting topic.

I think that the only thing that clearly differs us humans from the rest of all animals is the size of our brain, not that we're the only ones who have a free will and/or a soul. Humans are as driven by instincts just as animals - we eat, sleep, mate, try to escape threatening situations and, as the herd animals we are, feel the need to socialize and be loved. The wide spectra of emotions we possess is due to our cerebrum being more evolved than that of other animals. A natural result of evolution - and the reason we're even capable of asking ourselves these kinds of questions. Evolution may have a higher meaning - creating perfection? - but I don't think that we, as humans, are sent here with a specific task of what - or what not to - do. Thus I don't think one can say that we don't deserve to exist since animals do pretty much exactly the same evil things that we do - beat, bully, murder, rape, steal - just we do it in bigger scale because our brains allow us to (only difference might be that humans are destroying the planet  in the process).

So, what if the human race was wiped out of existence? Earth may survive quite a bit longer, but evolution would continue. Sooner or later some other race would develop brains complex enough to start conquering the planet once more. Besides, does a mouse have a bigger right to exist, since it's doesn't kill for food, than, say, a cat?

Moezy-chan: Just out of curiousity, what do you think about the resemblance we bear to apes - in appearance and DNA structure? The bones found in the ground? I'm just curious, since I've encountered few people, even if religious, who doesn't believe we've evolved from, as you say,  savages.

monkey:
cos we're ill, a'ight.

Tenkuuken:
Humans have a primal instinct to survive even at the expense of others. But it is that same primal instinct that keeps the people that matter to us to be alive with us and for us. It is also that same primal instinct that helps us rebuild what we have destroyed. We are actually very balanced beings. Thus, I don't think humanity will be wiped out because, well, it won't allow that to happen.

As for the evolution of humans from lower beings, I believe that the evolution of man would not be possible without God's wisdom at work. He would want to start from scratch to create a being made of His own likeness. He probably foresaw that we would have the urge to build and destroy, just like Him. In the Christian point of view, I say that God allowed us to grow to what we are now, and probably in the future, He may want us to be like Him in wisdom and grace.

Takeru: Three meals towards anarchy? It's like saying that there can never be peace in hunger.

Time-Machine:
Let's take the initial argument piece by piece. NOTE: I don't actually believe or live by all the things I'm about to say, but I've been told to come up with a rebuttal to information given me, and so I will. That's debate for ya'.


--- Quote from: Takeru ¥amamoto on May 31 2006, 10:22 am ---Humanity has spread across the surface of the planet like a cancer. Destroying ecosystems and species at a rate of 580 extinct species per day...

--- End quote ---

I am willing to believe that 580 species per day go extinct, and that many of those extinctions are due to human behaviour, but hundreds of species were dying out daily before humans ever came into the picture. It's something called Natural Selection. And there's a reason "Natural" is in there. Even the species that do go extinct due to our behaviour isn't necissarily a sign that we shouldn't exist. The activities of different varieties of animals have caused the extinction of other varieties for millions of years before our arrival as well, and if you look as humans as another sort of animal, than can't we as well?

And if you don't look as humans as animals, but instead as some sort of greater being, such as children of God, then isn't our existence more important?

And we have noticed this behaviour and are taking progressive action to fix it, saving many species and bringing them back to full health.

Whether you look at it as God or Evolution, the dying out of other species is simply a sign of Survival of the Fittest, and we win. Since when is winning something to be ashamed of?


--- Quote from: Takeru ¥amamoto on May 31 2006, 10:22 am ---...allowing hundreds of thousands of our own kind to die preventable deaths per day, ...

--- End quote ---

Many of these preventable deaths come through choices individuals make, such as cancer from alchohol, tobacco, or other kinds of drugs, or eating improperly and thus becoming obese, which brings on other diseases, or HIV, which is most commonly spread through unprotected sex. In order to prevent these from spreading you would have to impose upon the angency of others and their right to make their own choices. Trying to stop these would impose on people's rights to choose to govern their own eating habits and love lives, which should really be their own affair. And I think freedom is a more important cause, on the whole.

The other deaths from preventable disease, such as the epidemic of tuberculosis in Russian prisons, are getting addressed, and taken care of. These are primarily the fault of a select few individuals, and are not a justifiable representation of the population as a whole.

Otherwise disease comes from ignorance, and not knowing any better has never been a good reason for xenocide in my book.


--- Quote from: Takeru ¥amamoto on May 31 2006, 10:22 am ---...eliminating vital and amazing genetic diversity...

--- End quote ---

Actually, in the more modern era, where long distance travel and communication is a daily activity, interracial and intercultural marriages are more and more approved of, sex is more free and common, and the incestual tendencies of many European royals are starting to dissolve, genetic deversity is thriving. I have no idea what this idea is based off of, but it is incredibly false.


--- Quote from: Takeru ¥amamoto on May 31 2006, 10:22 am ---...pillaging the planet for resources, then dumping the poisons extracted from these resources into our common atmosphere, and generally f**king everything up for everyone who doesn't happen to be Human...

--- End quote ---

Guilty as charged, but the incredible thing is how many programs and how much awareness and work to fix this problem exist. Any species that as a whole group can say "We're idiots" and then reverse their own damage deserves to exist, if only for that ability. Gazelles and other animals have been known to go outside of their normal grazing grounds due to natural disasters and completely destroy previously existing ecosystems and then humans step in to fix it. We are the only creature capable of fixing ours and other animals destruction conciously and on a massive scale. And so yeah, we f**ked up, but we're fixing it, and that justifies everything.


--- Quote from: Takeru ¥amamoto on May 31 2006, 10:22 am ---For, after all our cancerous behaviour to our homeworld, we behave the same to one another as well. .... Even in well-fed developed nations, Humans still beat one another, rape one another, kill, steal, and act like total bastards with alarming regularity. Often, there isn't even any reason whatsoever for any of it. It doesn't take much to turn gentleman into raving savage, that seems clear enough.

--- End quote ---

Sadly, these actions are common to almost all mammals, and if it's not a reason to kick wolves out of the system, it shouldn't be for humans either.

And we punish those who commit these acts, which isn't true for most animals. We recognise them as wrong and theives, rapists, and murderers wind up in prison when possible. Is the system perfect? Hardly. (See "Tuberculosis in Russian Prisons" above). But we do make an effort. In the wild, dominating, wounding, and forcing sexual actions on others in a pack can give an animal power and prestige. In the human world, it takes them away. This is much more appropiate.

A lot of the next stuff seems redundant. We are power-hungry and we don't care who step on to get it. Okay.

--- Quote from: Takeru ¥amamoto on May 31 2006, 10:22 am ---We think in the short term, and act even shorter, perpetuating brutal injustices while we claim to value our unbiased judiciaries. We're all doing it right this minute, continuing to stomp third-world nations further into the mud via our preadatory, capitalistic lifestyle. Heck, we've organized entire international agencies to more efficently exploit and ruin 80% of Humanity for the benefit of the other 20%

--- End quote ---

If you completely kill the capitalistic lifestyle (though there are many things I think America could drop the capitalism on, but whatever) then you end up killing diversity and free will as well.

Oh, and ambition.

Yes, capitalism sucks. I agree. People up top really should be lending a hand to those down below. But if you force them to on too large of a scale, then that infringes on the rights of the people in more fortunate standings.

And the "stomping" on various third world countries is often the first step to their becoming second world, and then first world countries. Giving them jobs and making them work for larger corproations gives them to opportunity to work on a larger scale, and communicate outside of their country, and then question their own lifestyle. Education doesn't exist in many places until they are given a situation in which they question the poor ways in which they are being treated, and then seek for higher things.

Wouldn't a better option be to just offer education and good jobs in those places?

Yes. I'm not going to lie. You have me beat there.

But this is another case  of a small amount of people doing a lot of bad. If it really is only 20% taking advantage of the othe 80%, then you are suggesting that 80% of the population shouldn't be allowed to exist because of the actions of 20%, and that isn't reasonable. 20% is a minority in a much larger group.


--- Quote from: Takeru ¥amamoto on May 31 2006, 10:22 am ---How can we justify our selfish, self-centered, murderous, destructive, shortsighted, and savage behaviour? What right do we have to destroy everything we touch with frightening amorality at the expense of every other living thing?

--- End quote ---

Well...much of our destructive behaviour are similiar to that of animals, and so we justify it the same way animals do. If animals don't have to justify their behaviour, why should we?

And if we are higher than animals due to divine right, then if at any point we should not be allowed to exist, God will see that we don't. (Floods and plagues, anyone?) If we still do exist, then we are justified simply because God is allowing it, and God is all powerful.

"Expense of EVERY other living thing" seems a tad extreme to me, but that aside...

We destroy in order to create. For our own benefit? Yes, most of the time. But isn't that creation, that ability to create incredible and almost unnatural things that no other animal could manage a justification of our existence? Think of your favourite paintings, movies, songs, and foods. Many of those materials came from very unnatural means, especially if your favourite songs include instruments made of plastics or synthetic materials, and if you listened to them on CD.

Whether through Evolution or God we can create from what we experience. We can reflect on what we see, and write and take record.

The greater the bad, the more aware of the good you can be. You don't appreciate the comfort of your own bed until you are away from home. You never know how good anything is unless there is something bad to compare it to. Opposition is essential to happiness.

The species we are killing off are not aware that they are being destroyed. It doesn't effect their happiness one smidgeon if their death is impending due to us. Their happiness is based entirely on instinct, and the have nothing to compare it to, and thus no real diversity , and what is the point of that?

Humans should be allowed to exist because we can know and understand the animals in ways they can't, and we can experience and understand their lives, and so we are the creatures in this world really capable of happiness and sorrow. What is the point of a world without those?

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